"Now I have a feeling of regret that I retired from the army." Interview with Olena Kovbiy, Ukraine's first female judge who fought at the front

The first woman judge in the history of Ukraine woman judge who voluntarily went to the front, Olena Kovbiy, told in an in an exclusive interview with UNN about how she decided to go to defend Ukraine from Russian occupiers, how she saved the personal files of her colleagues in the Kherson court, to prevent them from falling into the hands of the FSB, and why she decided to go to Bakhmut for the second time and how she decided to participate in the competition to the High Council of Justice. She does not hides the fact that she is ashamed of some of her fellow judges and speaks directly about shortcomings in the organization of service in the army.

- Was your decision to go to was a conscious decision?

Of course, because on February 24, Kherson was already was already under fire, the enemy was on the outskirts of the city, and on March 1, Kherson was already occupied.

At 4:30 in the morning, the alarm went off. Tanks are already heading to Kherson. They call from Skadovsk that it is already occupied, Genichesk is already occupied. My husband is an SBU officer. My son is also an officer is also an officer. Of course, my husband and I had previously discussed the war, everything was coming to this, we just couldn't believe it. We did not think that they would come to Kherson. But they did. to Oleshky, to the bridge.

The man's anxious suitcase was already packed. We get into the car, I drive him to the service, we say goodbye, because the war is on. the car, I take him to the service, we say goodbye, because it's war. I came back, picked up the dog, packed my suitcase, went to pick up my mother-in-law, picked her up, and we went to Vinnytsia region. My husband is from there, so we went there.

It took us a long time to get there because many people were leaving the city. Our Our way was through Chornobaivka, it was already burning and bombed. We reached  Vinnytsia region at about 12:00 in the morning. At the same time, my assistant was leaving with his family. He dialed me and asked: "Did you have you left? I said yes. She asked where he was going. He didn't know where he was going. Somewhere in Vinnytsia region. I gave him the address of my relatives and told him to go there and wait for me. He was with his mother, wife and three dogs. We all moved into the 3-bedroom house of my relatives. There were me and my mother-in-law and my dog, three of them adults and three dogs. It was a nightmare.

On February 25, my birthday, I took my assistant to the my assistant to the RCCC, and at night he was in Mykolaiv with his unit, and On February 26, I joined a battalion of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

- When did you decide to go to the service?

On the way to Vinnytsia region. My mother-in-law kept asking me to return home, but I already realized that Kherson would be occupied, I told her that, given the places of service husband and son, to put it mildly, we would have big problems.

My thoughts were about my son. One of the first missile strikes that was on Kyiv, it was a strike on their unit. My husband was accompanying a convoy - They were taking out documents and partially evacuating those family members of who agreed to leave. In the same convoy was a traitor who who was adjusting the attacks on them. But God saved us... That is, he knew the points where they should enter and spend the night there, but they simply did not get there, and so on until to Western Ukraine... Then we realized what was going on. The youngest child in this was 4 months old.

Later I found out that my son and the boys left one grenade for themselves to avoid being captured. An only child... it's hard. Later, my son went to Bucha and Gostomel to to clean up..

Unfortunately, my assistant was killed in last April was killed near Suligivka. He was considered missing, and my husband did everything he could to gather as much information as possible. We hoped that he was either wounded and hiding or in captivity. But, unfortunately, no.  When the area where his unit's positions were cleared, it was in November. unit was located, it was in November, when Kharkiv region was liberated, they found his his body. He was an only son. My biggest dream was for him to become a judge. I told him that I would even leave my office, because he really deserved to be a judge.

- Who did you consult when you decided to go to war?

No one. I come from a military family. My character is such that since since childhood I have been making decisions on my own. My husband and son found out about my joining the army found out after the fact. I joined the training center and then I was forced to make the decision.

-  What was their reaction?

The reaction, of course, was mixed. There were two voices. shouted: it's enough that we are at war. But they have always respected my decisions and are proud of me. decisions and, of course, they are proud of me. My son was not married at the time and out of the three family members three members of the family were fighting. But I had no doubts at all. Many of those who joined the TRO hoped that they would be, let's say, on the on the territory of their own village. I did not even have such a thought. I decided for I decided for myself that if the battalion went to the combat zone, I would go with it.

We had a highly professional commander, a career officer, Serhiy Vasylovych is a professional military man. He has five children, two of them minors, and a grandson. So he went to war. At first he was a company commander in our battalion, but literally battalion, but in just a few days he was appointed battalion commander, and he started to form the battalion.

I first saw the commander not in February, when I arrived, but in late March or early April, because the formation of a battalion is a very difficult process. He was sleeping for literally 2-3 hours. First, there are strangers, civilians, and you have to determine who can do what.

And we didn't know where (the occupiers would go - ed.) in the first days. We had to mine the territory and deploy units to to protect the territory. When he lined us up for the first time, he looked at us and said nothing. I managed to get a fleece, pants and sneakers before I left. a pair of sneakers. That was it. There was nothing else. Then he said, "Give us our weapons. They gave us assault rifles, magazines, and unloaders for the girls.

Professional military men, with a military education, in the battalion at first there were 10-20 people, which is well, for the whole battalion, which is almost 750 people.

- Have you ever fired a gun before? fired a weapon before?

Not at all. My husband has a gun, he offered to go to shoot, but I had no desire to use the weapon at all.

- What was your first impression when you took up arms for the first time?

There was no fear at all. No fear at all, the main thing was to feel the weapon. The first time our instructor, especially when the girls came to the range, after the training, he said: thank you for staying alive (laughs). Besides, as it turned out, I'm a pretty good shot. The pistol I didn't like the pistol, it felt different  compared to with an assault rifle, machine gun, RPG (after receiving the rank of officer, a pistol and were my service weapons). My son also bought a weighting, and I had a scope. I had a scope, and I used to shoot the assault rifle at 100, 200 meters, and said I would be a sniper (laughs).

-   Did you feel pity for the enemy?

I don't know, maybe my character I have more of a masculine personality, plus my experience as a judge. And there is no pity for the the enemy, and I have judicial experience -  since 2009. I have been a judge since 2009. And if you feel sorry for everyone, it will be useless. It's like a doctor - you either treat or or you pity them. There was anger, of course. There is no pity for the enemy.

- Were you easily accepted in the TRO?

There were no difficulties, I was not the only woman there, there were other other girls. In principle, everyone was accepted to the TRO. Later, many decided to resign, when the commander told the personnel of the of the battalion that we would soon be sent to the combat zone, some of them mentioned about illness, disability, three or more children.....

I did not have an officer's rank. My first rank was soldier, my position was was a clerk. The fact that I was a judge became known later. I submitted the documents, but who carefully studied them at the beginning - I have the documents, I have a passport, my face and the face matches, and that was it. Later, when they started to form a personal file, I provided a judge's certificate and my work record. everyone was surprised.  Moreover, I, as a a soldier, I was on duty on a per diem basis. And my duties included not only guarding the headquarters, but also to restore order, including in the toilets... I even wanted to take a picture of my comrades I even wanted to take a picture, he said that if he told someone that the judge was cleaning the floors and toilets, they would not believe it. But I am a judge in civilian life, and there I was a and orders in the army are not discussed, they are executed!

- You had a call sign, right?

As for the call sign, I chose "Themis." My husband suggested "Valkyrie," but there are many Valkyries, and Themis -is the only one, as far as I know.

Until 2023, I was the only female judge in both the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Now there are more of my female colleagues, and this inspires respect. I know that before the DFTG  (volunteer formation of a territorial community - ed.) includes a female judge of the Supreme Court.

- Tell us about Bakhmut, when you were there. What was your first feeling, what struck you?

We were sent to Bakhmut on a combat We were sent to Bakhmut by combat orders in July 2022. The convoy marched for three days, We spent the night on the ground - a sleeping bag, a cot. You take everything with you. I am grateful to my judicial colleagues administration from Vinnytsia - for their assistance. the owner of a car dealership provided our battalion with a minibus, which I and and the staff officers traveled to the zone (of combat operations - ed.). The bus broke down from time to time - we had it repaired immediately, but we got there okay. У We were followed by a Neoplan bus with personnel.

The first impression was confusion. We were the first to arrive in the combat zone and were were taken straight to our positions. First of all, Donetsk region means armor and helmets. We thought we were going to be taken to the headquarters, because all the staff officers were in the minibus. We were brought to the position to the position, and the position, so you understand, is "three green trees" and that's it. Then there is a field and the enemy. And into this landing a white van and a bus pull into this landing. "Neoplan."  The driver of the "Neoplan driver comes up to me and asks what he should do. I said, "I don't know, at least leave and preferably quickly. In addition,  engineers of the battalion arrived at these positions, which means that the entire ammunition of the battalion.

Those positions were already occupied by guys, I don't remember which company. I asked them what to do. And they said: "We dig dig a hole to sleep in". So we dug it and covered it. My place looked like a grave.

On the first day, our commander, as a true commander, went to the positions that were to be occupied by one of our companies. of our companies. And he was blown up on a on a tripwire, got very seriously wounded, and was evacuated. We were shocked - the first day in the zone (of hostilities - ed.), and we are without a commander. The battalion has not yet fully entered, one company has entered, and the commander is gone - he is in the hospital, and we do not know what to do. what to do.

Then four of us officers were taken to Bakhmut, to the center of of the city. Our headquarters was located in the House of Creativity for Children and Youth, I think that's how it was called,  in the basement. There were children's toilets upstairs, and the guys made a shower with cold water. What I remember is that not far from our headquarters, there was a high-rise building, a tax office, everything around was smashed, and this building was intact for a very long time, even when we were leaving Bakhmut. Today, of course, it's gone, just like the city itself, unfortunately.

On the third day after of our entry into the zone (of hostilities - ed.), the headquarters was subjected to mortar mortar shelling - 6 300s at once, heavy ones. It was a nightmare. I am grateful to to the commander for teaching us how to fight and survive 4 months before we entered the combat zone. We studied topography, weapons, tactical medicine, practiced shooting. That's why we immediately we immediately got our bearings, put on tourniquets, treated our wounds and handed us over for evacuation. Honestly, it was scary, but you realize that if you lose your cool now, a person will simply will die. Six people is just a nightmare. And all our cars that were on the on the territory were smashed.

About the basement itself, where Our headquarters was located in a three-room building with rebar sticking out of the ceiling, I said that if we were covered, we would be like hedgehogs. Out of these three rooms, one was a working room, at the entrance, and the other two rooms were bedrooms with cats, mice bedbugs...

- What about women's nature with bugs and mice?

You get used to everything.

- Were you scared? Do you regret going to war?

Because of mice and bedbugs, no. Our headquarters consisted, of course, mostly of men. of men, there were two of us (girls - ed.) and about 20 men. The men tried to protect us, but we did not feel any gender difference at all. Physiology? Yes, that's was all we had in common. But believe me, under those conditions, it all fades away.

The area where the headquarters was located often came to the area where the headquarters was located, and we could not sleep at night, put on full equipment and take up positions assigned by the commander. As a rule, when the command was given "take up defense", everyone already knows where they should be, my girlfriend and I were in the headquarters, that is, in the basement, together with the signalman. This is the only difference and how they protected us at least a little. But if you fly directly to the headquarters, that's it. And we were convinced of this when, two weeks after the commander and the officers who were with him at the time, from Bakhmut to Chasiv Yar, there was a direct hit to building and that was it - our basement was gone. We looked at the photos - it was just horrible.

And to answer your I have not regretted going to war for a single minute. Perhaps now I feel regret leaving the army, but I still proceeded from the fact that my fellow judges elected me, entrusted me with the position of a member of the HCJ, and I was needed on the "other front."

Our commander, after being seriously after being seriously wounded, returned to the battalion in two and a half months without being treated, despite the fact that people with such injuries receive a disability group and dismissed from the army. He returned back in the ranks. For me, he will always be a Hero!

- The contrast between the army and civilian life - is it huge? huge?

Yes, but I want to tell you that the the army is not so good either. And the human gut..

- Black and white? Should I shoot or not?

There's an enemy out there, and we have to kill him. There are nuances, there are difficulties, there is command, who still live by Soviet principles, and it is difficult. I have been in the military environment since childhood. military environment since childhood, my father is an officer, my husband is an officer, my son is an officer, so I know firsthand I know firsthand what it is.

- I realize that peaceful Kyiv and burning Bakhmut are not even are not even two different poles...

So I compare..

My husband is now in Kherson, and my son was in Zaporizhzhia region for 6 months, under tank and air strikes. On July 15 this year, my son's wedding was held. It was just a dinner, because it was not the time to celebrate to celebrate a wedding loudly. He invited his colleagues, we didn't invite any relatives, no one. On the 15th, there was a wedding, and on the 17th I went to Bakhmut - it was my second rotation. No one knew - neither my husband nor my son.

My husband, however, felt that I took the dog to my mother-in-law. My colleagues also bought me a new armor and a helmet. He asked me if I wanted to tell him something... I told him that there was a situation. And he just asked. When?" I answered that on Monday (the conversation was on Saturday - ed.). And her son was informed on July 16, on Sunday.

My son had 10 days of vacation, then went back to the front. His wife stayed behind, and on November 2, our granddaughter was born.

- Have you been to Kherson after the de-occupation?

I have been to Kherson three times. Our apartment was mined. On May 5 last year, the FSB came there. We expected it to happen, because they started going door to door in March - all addresses, "turnouts and passwords" were given, it's a given. They entered the apartment, and what they were doing there, I don't know, they stayed for more than 40 minutes, for some reason they tore off the and platbands were torn off for some reason. And why do I conclude that it was mined, because I asked my neighbor to come in and see what they did there, and one of them did not advise her to go in. Despite the fact that my husband is in Kherson, he has not yet visited the apartment with the specialists, because he does not have time and it is it is problematic to do so under constant shelling, and in an apartment building. apartment building.

- Why did you decide to return to Bakhmut for the second time? to return to Bakhmut?

Not to return, but I had to leave with the battalion. I was still serving, there was a combat order, although the commander still asked me if I would go with the battalion. I told him that you need me there, and he said yes.

At that time, I was I was "torn" between service and work at the HCJ. I am grateful to the command for their understanding understanding of the situation and allowed me to go to HCJ meetings once a week based on my reports. to attend HCJ meetings once a week, but after the meetings I returned to the battalion, because no one released me from my duties.  

In April, when the battalion was leaving for its second rotation, Bakhmut no longer existed as a city. It was the first time I saw I saw the city, there were still residents, shops were open. The first rotation was usually about positional battles, the second - urban battles, it is much harder, there are more losses....

I also remember the "first" Bakhmut because locals would come and ask for money, drink, smoke, and in 10 minutes they would be back. There were days when it was impossible to go outside from the basement was impossible, the shelling was so intense.

-        What were your responsibilities?

I held the position of head of civil-military cooperation. cooperation, first I was acting, and after I was promoted to officer I was no longer acting, but temporarily acted as a lawyer of the battalion.

Civil-military cooperation is cooperation with authorities and the civilian population - finding out their problems and needs, evacuation. In the combat zone, my main task was to work with the dead and missing persons. That is, all the paperwork, the initial examination of of the bodies.

There was a point in Kostiantynivka where all the bodies that they managed to take out of Bakhmut. The CIMICs of all the units that were in this combat zone at the time came there. that were in the combat zone at the time. It was like a distribution center, there were bodies of the dead were lying on the floor in bags. You would approach the body, take everything out of their pockets everything out of their pockets, take pictures, sign documents, and then they take them to Dnipro to the morgue. And then the paperwork begins. If it's a deceased person. I have to report it to the RTCC, because I have no right to communicate directly with relatives about the dead or missing person. If it's a missing person - again again, a report to the RCCC and the police, they open  criminal proceedings, an internal investigation, we wait for the guys from the position to return to the location, collect information from them, who saw what.

- The work of an investigator?.

You can say it this way. You take their testimony: you ask them what they they saw, whether they saw that they were dead or not, and you describe it all. The most difficult thing is is communication with the family. Because when they receive a message from the RCCC about about the death of a loved one, they naturally start calling the battalion. We have a special phone number to communicate with the relatives of those killed or missing, I bought a cell phone, it was a hotline phone. It is clear that relatives tried to find out as much as possible more about the circumstances, about what we were doing if it concerned a missing person. the missing person. Often people were angry. I tried to somehow reduce this I tried to somehow lower the "degree", and it probably helped me that I am a judge and every day I had different people in the different people, and a real judge is a good psychologist. You watch and already You watch and think about how to manage this process. And when a civilian comes to court, especially for the first time, and when he hears every day that judges are bad, judges are bribe-takers, and everything sold out, the mood is appropriate. So I tried to smooth it out. And it actually helped in in principle, helped in communicating with relatives.

The hardest thing was when you know, you've already been told, you've conducted an internal investigation, that he is no longer there - you just can't get the body because 5-6 more soldiers might die because of it... There are a lot of guys who are still there..

- How did you cope with it psychologically? Are there any methods?

There are no methods, there is no time to think about methods. It is is still a character, and when you are there, you accumulate all your strength. If a person is is strong, he/she gives himself/herself the attitude that you are in these conditions and you need to to survive these conditions. If you constantly dig into yourself, it will be useless, you can go crazy. This is is the difference between a professional soldier and a civilian. For men. It was hard for the men, I watched them at the headquarters. Imagine a 24/7 confined space, 3 meters by 2 meters. And when you watch a healthy man, an adult, start walking pacing back and forth, it's hard, so you just start to turn on and talk to him. And I'm not a professional psychologist, and I've been in the same situation myself. I just had to get them out of that state. I just had to bring them out of this state. Plus, you're constantly thinking about your husband and with your husband, with your son. Especially a child... It's hard.

- And at the same time you saw many more young men killed. young men...

Yeah. There was a guy who managed to get married before he was released, and the child was a month old. And here he is, younger than my son. You look... He's is lying in the way he was evacuated from the positions....

I don't dream about the dead, to be honest. Still, you have two rotations and, unfortunately, you get used to it and psychologically adjust to the fact that you need to to abstract yourself. It's a pity, aggression is indescribable. When you look, there is a guy lying there. without his head, his bones sticking out - it's scary. And the feeling that these guys are on their own land defending their country from some freaks who came here for no clear reason. why, for what purpose, I still can't get my head around it, despite what I've seen, despite what I've seen. How can this be in the 21st century?

- My opinion - I want to know yours: the society is very heated and divided. And it is very difficult to put this puzzle together. Anything that is thrown into the information space, for some reason, immediately grows and begins to live. And not always the reality coincides with what is presented to us. This also applies to collaborators - for some reason the real traitors are not always visible.

They don't want to see it. Right now, a man in Kherson is engaged in in Kherson, and there are a lot of them among the locals. I don't understand how you can I can't get my head around how, if you are a local, you can betray, adjust fire on your own people, in your own home? But there will always be those who will betray you for a few kopecks. will betray you.

But at the same time, we should pay tribute to Kherson. I never thought thought that its residents would be so supportive of Ukraine. This is despite the fact that Kherson has always been considered a city of military retirees, and as a rule, these are Soviet retirees with a bit of nostalgia for the USSR.

Let me give you an example: the parents of my son's classmate, they are from Donetsk region, their relatives in Russia are Russians. They were all for Russia, and when the war started. war, after they were forced to leave their home in Kherson, they became against Russia categorically. They began to speak Ukrainian, write to me, greet me in Ukrainian. in Ukrainian.

Prior to becoming a judge, I worked in the judiciary from 2000 to 2009, and a year before my appointment as a judge, I held the position of head of the regional executive service. Do you understand my social circle? This is the entire power elite of the Kherson region, and unfortunately, when you read the names of traitors, it just hurts.

- Nowadays, society is actively discussing the issues of mobilization and rotation. Is rotation necessary? How to conduct it?

It is definitely needed. It's only fair to hold it. Now. now they propose to prescribe, I don't know whether this bill has been introduced or not, a rotation after 90 days, and I support this idea. Do you know what is the most important thing for those who are there? Understanding when to return. And this is again psychology. We were going to the war zone, and we didn't know how long. We had a combat order from such and such a date to "infinity". Because of this, because of this uncertainty, unfortunately, in our battalion, we had big problems later.

- How to organize?

So, look, we have a brigade, I can't tell you the exact number. number, but, for example, it has 10 battalions, that is, the first battalion is in training for 90 days, and then the second battalion. I know that I am going for 90 days, I left on the 1st of the month and On the 1st, I will return after 90 days. Or I won't.

- We are talking about rotation to the front line. I'm talking about mobilization in general. We don't have enough guys, how do we reach them?

Reaching out to make people leave? Who will? Given how much negative stuff is out there about how we are being betrayed, abandoned....

- The issue is different - we post vacancies on job search sites. job sites, and people are tired of it. Should there be counter-propaganda?

Let's start from the beginning. The army was killed. Let's be honest. the army should be professional, professionals should fight. I like the Israeli model. Israeli model, where everyone has to undergo military training. Everyone should be able to defend their country, family, and self. People need to be taught how to fight and survive in such conditions. If we did that, there would be fewer deaths.

- But right now it is not realistic to do so.

There is no model for Israel, but it is always possible to teach, if there was a desire on both sides would be the desire of both sides.... Today there is a lot of negativity, people are just afraid and and simply stop trying to go and defend their land. Have you seen many positive videos? What kind of work is being done to make people want to desire, not even a desire, but an understanding that you need to defend your country, because the enemy will be in your house tomorrow?

When I was in Odesa, I went to the Arcadia with my colleagues, I was in I was in uniform, and people were throwing themselves at me. I look at all this and realize how many battalions can be recruited, not companies, but battalions. I have a feeling that soon there will be more girls in the army. Girls are psychologically stronger. It's in their nature, after all, It's probably in their nature, because motherhood is painful.

- And how do you get back after all this? When did you decide to join the HCJ and why?

To be honest, I never thought that I could participate in such a competition. participate in such a competition - Kherson, the first instance, and get to the HCJ... I never thought about it at all. The HCJ did not work for a year, and then in the spring of 2022 announced a competition during the war, my first thought was that I should try. However, we found out that the battalion was going to Bakhmut (we had already left on July 17), so I rejected this idea, because I had to submit a lot of documents and pass an interview. I decided that I would not go. Then my colleague from the Kherson court called, we talked talked, and he asked if I wanted to try to participate in the competition to the HCJ. I said that I had thought about it, but it was not the right time. But he insisted that I should try. I said I would think about it and that in order to make a final decision, I need to coordinate it with the commander, because I am a military man and I cannot I cannot take a step to the left or a step to the right without his permission. I have understood this since childhood. - Commander, order, execution of the order.

I approached the commander, explained the situation, that there was an opportunity to try to become a member of the High Council of Justice, but I hesitated because it was not the right time. I am grateful to him, he supported me and not only allowed me to deal with this issue, but insisted on it. Of course, my husband and son also supported me."  

- Did you take your documents with you when you left Kherson? We often hear about problems with documents for those who left, evacuated.

I took out my documents, plus those leaving Kherson, and took out all the personal files of the judges of my court. Two months before the war, I insisted on to collect all the personal files, pack them up, and determine who would take them out if necessary. in case of need. The colleague who was supposed to take our personal files was on vacation at the time of the the beginning of the war, was on vacation, so of course he could not take them out. I decided to I decided to take them and informed the head of the court. I took them to Vinnytsia region and I hid them in the basement in bags, and sent a photo and a marker to my colleague. Then wrote to the head of the Supreme Court that I had personal files and that I was in the army, and I could go to the war zone today or tomorrow. She asked where I should send them. to send them to? He told me where, and I handed them over.

- Do you feel that the HCJ is afraid to make disciplinary decisions against Supreme Court judges?

Look, we have inherited almost 13 thousand complaints that we have to consider. There are 17 of us now, but the HCJ chairman and the Supreme Court chairman do not are not involved in the distribution of complaints. That is, there are 15 of us for 13 thousand complaints that have already and we receive at least 50 complaints every day.

To be honest, the current members of the HCJ have no fear when when making decisions. If there were, the Chief Justice would not have been arrested. would not have been arrested.

- When he was caught with money... but the truth will be established by the court - but since it was on the hype of negativity, there was one question - if the HCJ did not the HCJ did not allow his arrest, it would share the wave of negativity with him.

I can say with 100% certainty that the current composition of the HCJ does not does not pay attention to names, there is a law and we are implementing it.

- I'm talking about shop solidarity.

And I'm telling you seriously, I'm sure, otherwise I wouldn't have I wouldn't have said it.

-        Do you think a polygraph is necessary?

It is not legalized at the legislative level. It can be an auxiliary tool, and then in exceptional cases. I think that a person who has such questions that he or she is forced to take a polygraph will not reach the HCJ. У law says that the HCJ decides whether to send a candidate for a polygraph. a candidate for a polygraph.

And what is the purpose of the HQCJ, which sends materials to the HCJ after verification of the candidate, which already puts the final point before submitting documents to the President?

- There is a legal provision that gives the Supreme Court the right to to cancel the HCJ's decisions. How often are decisions canceled, and have you had any such cases in your practice? such cases in your practice?

There were, and not just one. Of course, the decisions were canceled and revised. After the decision of the Grand Chamber of the Supreme Court, we return to the stage of of reviewing the materials, we again provide an assessment.

- The image of a judge. What needs to be done to change the attitude of of the society? So that every judge is not immediately labeled as bad, and then and then think that maybe they are not as bad as others. How to change this? 

You understand that if you are told every day that you are an idiot. you will believe it. And when you hear endlessly on the radio, TV, on the Internet that judges are are bad, bribe-takers, a person who has never been to court in his life believes it. In the Kherson court, we conducted a survey of visitors every six months, namely those who are directly involved in the process. These are both government officials and ordinary citizens. authorities and ordinary citizens. I want to tell you that more than 80% of them had trust in the court. This is among those involved in the process.

But how do they conduct surveys and say that there is low trust in the court, judges, and the judiciary? They are conducted, as I understand it, among all citizens, among those who do not know, have only heard.

What should I do to avoid being thought of as a bribe taker? a bribe-taker? Should I go outside with a poster?

At one interview, I was asked what you can say about about the Knyazev case. I said honestly that I was ashamed as a judge, and as a military officer - I was still I was still in uniform at the time - I'm sorry. Despite the fact that he helped the army a lot. to the army.

And I think you know how judges help the frontline... No matter how many times I appealed to judges, to my Odesa court, to which I was to which I was sent from Kherson, the HCJ, I was never refused. And how much money I invested my money in the first stages.

- Were the judges making it easier to get things done?

And they still do. For example, there is a judge who buys sniper rifles. They also buy cars.

Second Bakhmut - we had a lot of guys with with acubarotrauma (contusion). They are not taken to hospitals because they are crowded with other wounded with shrapnel and bullet wounds. And these guys were with us. According to protocol, they do not give such medications that treat acubarotrauma. And so from a doctor I found out what medicines were needed. Several times I bought them myself, but the number of guys who needed them but there were more and more guys who needed them. I took a full list of what was needed from the doctor and and turned to my colleagues at the HCJ, who sent me the list in boxes. Everything that was needed - no questions asked.

And recently, the commander called and asked me - Vasylivna, help me with some paper. He needs ordinary office paper. After all, we have a paper army. As my commander says, if we get a direct hit, we'll have paper falling from the sky for two weeks. will be falling from the sky for another two weeks. Again, I ask the members of the HCJ to collect and buy everything, I delivered the paper to my guys. And that's how I'm still helping. If it is a small amount, then I pay for it myself, but if it's something serious, I ask my colleagues.

- What should the judicial reform in Ukraine ideally look like? What should be done?

Clear legislation. For this purpose, we have a legislative body, the parliament, which has to pass a law once. In America, the Constitution of what year? The country is prosperous, but our laws are constantly changing. Sometimes we have sometimes we have an absurd situation where one law is amended and another is not introduced at the same time, and they are not consistent with each other.

- Is the judicial system the most corrupt of all today?

I wouldn't say it's not leading.

- Who is in the lead?

Today? Look at the military commissars.

You cannot take the system and say that it is 100% bad, and the judges are not 100% bad, , but unfortunately, the HCJ sometimes reacts in a legitimate in a legitimate way.

Getting back to mobilization. The first month, even the first six months, it was such an upsurge... And now... And look at how many lawyers are teaching now?

- How to avoid mobilization.

And when a lawyer writes "I believe in the Armed Forces" at the end of every post on social social networks, and the post is about how to avoid mobilization? Everyone should be aware of what will happen tomorrow!

- What about the initiative with convicts?

I hadn't really thought about it, but why not? no. There are a lot of guys who have had this happen in their lives. I'm not talking about serious crimes. But there are so many specialists, like IT people. How many useful things they can do. I still believe that when a convict expresses a desire to join the army it would be right if a psychologist worked with him and understood his goal.

The approach should be individual, to each person. First, you need to understand their motivation - why they want to do this, do they have real intentions or is it just to get out of their "comfort zone" where they are now? is now. I believe that those who are really motivated should be fired.

- And if an individual approach - how can this be written in the legislation? legislation so that it is in the legal field?

First, if there is an individual approach and psychologists work psychologists work, and there are conclusions that he cannot be fired, he stays where he is. he stays where he is. Murders are also different. This can be spelled out in the law. So why not? But not for meat, as in the Russian army.

Our guys told us how the Russians worked in Bakhmut during the city battles. They (Russians - ed.) have three groups. One group is called "layers", they have nothing, not even armor. They bring ammunition and go back and forth. The second group exhausts the guys, and try to stay awake 24 hours a day to stay awake 24 hours a day - it's impossible. And the third group - the militants - when it's night, they go fresh, and they carry BCs behind them, they go to destroy.

- What was the worst thing at the front?

The worst thing is to lose your sense of of self-preservation. If you get used to it, it's death. Many of our guys died because they lost this sense of self-preservation, because they lost this sense of self-preservation and left the dugouts without armor, without helmets. Even my son told me that they would leave with nothing on, with only and the guys there are wearing T-shirts. And so the one who could have been 300 - becomes 200. Unfortunately, we had guys like that too. They would come out of the dugout and and then an air raid. You would be without an arm or a leg, but alive, you would be pulled out, because evacuation evacuation was organized, but otherwise it was death.

Unfortunately, you get used to these shelling. What is written on the family tree, so it will be, and everyone has their own path that that they have to go through. But there are many stupid deaths that could have been avoided, despite the fact that there are many stupid deaths that could have been avoided.

- You're not coming back for the third time?

- No.

In July, I retired from the army, I'm a reserve officer, and if I'm I will leave without hesitation. Although I understand that we currently have only 17 members out of 21 according to the law, only 17 people are in the HCJ, and this is critical.

- Is there a lot of gray in your life? I mean, there's black, there's white, and there's a gray line?

I don't think about it, honestly. Maybe before, despite my character, I was not so categorical. After the war and two Bakhmut..

- So it has shrunk?

I feel... there is no gray. No halftones. White and black. І let's just say that this sense of justice... I look at everything with different eyes and I can't I can't do otherwise.

- What if you were given a goldfish and only one wish?

Only Victory.